Nothing starts my morning like a title that makes me think I'm about to read a comparison between two similar technologies (valuable) and getting this drivel (not so much).

> people like to criticise Microsoft...They will
> use Microsoft Windows,Microsoft Office Suite
> and most the the Microsoft products but then
> also keep criticizing it.

I criticise Microsoft, and the only time I use MS products is when one of my clients requires me to use Entourage to talk to Exchange.

> "Apple OS is good for designers". I do not
> know whats the reason behind this myth but I
> find it really wierd when Apple is considered
> good for designers.

Just what does this have to do with WPF and Apollo?

> Open Office is such a wierd product that most
> of the time you will use it hoping that it
> doesn't crash.

That's a good summary of my experience with Microsoft Office, on both PC and Mac.

> I found that Apollo and Flex is just the
> replica of .NET Framework.

You must have not looked very hard. The XML layout / code behind of Flex is where .NET is *trying* to go with WPF - and Adobe/Macromedia has been there for 3-4 years. Who's replicating who?

Apollo is a cross-platform, largely OS-neutral runtime for Flash/Flex, HTML, and PDF - something that Microsoft would never produce. Again, hardly a replication.

Additionally, if we're going to knock products for being replicas, let's go ahead and say it:

The .NET framework is Microsoft's replica of Java, because they needed something they could "own" in a manner decreasing competition.

> Actionscript is such a wierd language that
> simple task like writing/reading file looks
> almost difficult

Writing a file in AS3:

var file:File = File.appStorageDirectory.resolve("SomeFile.txt");
var stream:FileStream = new FileStream()

var out:String = “File content.”;


stream.open(file, FileMode.WRITE);
stream.writeUTFBytes(out);
stream.close();

Of course, it's not as easy as CFML:

<cffile action="write" file="someFile.txt" output="File content." />

...but if you can't handle either, it might be time to think about a career change.

Quote
Guys Flash is just an animation software which was made with the intention of being a preloader. It cannot take place of programming Language.
Unquote

Do yourself and your blog readers a favor. Learn something about ActionScript 3.0, a powerful programming language and part of the Flash/Flex platform.

Intelligent criticism is knowledge. Stupid, ignorant criticism is propaganda.

@Joe:
the guy is a MS certified professional, so he should change the career anyway. That's what he's scared about and what makes him write such a crap.

I think the point your missing is that Flash, Flex and Apollo are all cross platform/cross browser.

This makes development of applications/products/websites efficient and easy.

'Windows has become a standard and majority of people use it.'

This is true, but there seems to be more and more people moving to OSX. I don't know if facts and figures back this up, but its definately what I am seeing.

'one myth that is common among people is that "Apple OS is good for designers"'

How is this a myth? Designers love Mac. There is no myth there. They don't want to have to learn how to connect to networks, share files between each other etc, they just want it to work.

'With emerging technologies like WPF Windows is the best platform for designing and development.'

How can that be? It isn't cross platform so then I end up with a limited version for other OS's using WPF/E and from what I have seen it requires a lot more code to do the equivilant of what you could do in AS 3.0.

'One day I was just trying to open a file in Flash, would you believe Actionscript is such a wierd language that simple task like writing/reading file looks almost difficult,'

What is weird about it? It's ECMAScript. You can open an ActionScript file in any text editor and code.

> let this year of 2007 come to an end then we will see where this Apollo and Flex stand :D

besides the speling - we won't see any linux or mac version of WPF so there's nothing to wait for.

dear certified microsoft guy, please get a clue :)

This is the most ignorant and dumb blog message I see so far this year. Why? Plenty of reasons.

1. Style! Man, I am MCP and MCDBA aside from Flash certifications and I am really ASHAMED that there are people like you who push their MCP title and use such crappy way of expressing themselves. It’s not ignorant, it’s dumb.

2. Lack of knowledge even for a mere comparison! You can’t name Flash a programming language, it’s like naming Word a programming language. Before even trying to write something, just spend some serious time to compare. I am sure you spend couple of minutes checking Internet sites for examples in Flash and you think that’s all? Flash is not a language, and Actionscript 3 is more Java-alike than you can even imagine.

3. Lack of historical knowledge! Probably you just became MCP or you are doing some kind of development since couple of years. But stating that Linux is copying Windows, Apollo and Flex - .NET, well this is DUMB*DUMB. MS DOS command names are almost identical to Unix/Linux ones. And MS DOS was highly limited. Windows Vista IS copying Linux style, take a look at Windows Explorer, it’s totally different than Win Explorer before Vista and almost identical to the Linux ones. Oh, .NET was a nice copy of J2EE, remember that year MS won a price as the best copycat of the year – because of .NET. And BTW, XAML came as a MS research mostly from MXML and its role and partially CF tagging. You, as a good MCP, probably would know that just 2 years ago MS stated that the best dev ideas MUST be implemented in a fully OO environment and tag-based dev is not structured, anti-logical, hard to maintain and for sissies.

4.Poor knowledge of what Apollo could be against your beloved WPF! Did u get a chance to install Expression Blend. Because from the whole Expression Suite this is the product you would need for WPF tagging. Or you wouldn’t know this. How could you, did you really have a chance to install and play with WPF, really really? Because as an MCP you would use eventually VS Orcas and then eventually can state Orcas has everything in it for full-blown WPF development. Because Expression Blend looks so much Eclipse-alike. Don’t know what Eclipse is? Well…

5.Adobe is evolving. As MS BTW. Look at MS and their struggles to switch to a different gear and trying to shape themselves against new market opportunities. Every big company must do this. Otherwise soon or later it’s out. So Adobe competes with any company in searching new ways boosting their revenues, as MS does the same. And all others.

And my final words, next time trying to write something, first gather detail info, take your time to compare and work over the differences, and then try to publish. It’s not because your posting is a total crap, but because I am really surprised an MCP could be so full of shit. It makes me sad.

You don't have trackbacks :
http://www.unitzeroone.com/blog/flex_2/wpf_vs_apolloflex_as_interpret.html

For the record I have a MCSD & MCDBA I also have Advanced Coldfusion Developers Certification. I have used Microsoft development tools for a long time. Flex has been out for over thee years I believe (I don’t remember the exact release date) Adobe is the leader in this area (Rich Internet Applications) Microsoft is still trying to catch up. My company is looking at moving towards Flex and ColdFusion for developing web applications. The following statement;

“Flash is just an animation software which was made with the intention of being a preloader. It cannot take place of programming Language.”

Makes me wonder what type of analysis and comparison you have done to come to that conclusion. I admit I was a little skeptical of Flex and ColdFusion at first, but once I took off the blinders that Microsoft likes their developers to wear and started looking at how productive I was in ColdFusion & Flex compared to ASP.NET. I have talked to a lot of designers over the years most I have found dislike ASP.NET because it forces them to think like programmers and do things like programmers, ColdFusion & Flex allows designers to think about the design first and its tag based language allows designers to solve the problems they have without worrying about “programming”. Lets be honest, Microsoft is about client development, and Adobe is about web development.

I my opinion Microsoft does not want to make it easy to build great web applications that can run on multiple platforms, it is not in their interest to do so. I see Microsoft releasing WPF which will be great but only run on the Windows client; I also see them releasing WPF/E (cross platform version) which will probably suck. For the applications I’m contracted to develop they must be able to run on multiple platforms. Microsoft still has yet to get that. I hope they do someday.

Wow You just got ripped up. Can we expect you to reply or do you have no more piss to shoot out of your mouth?
Mike

I highly recommend you remove your blinders and actually take a bit to learn something about what you are criticizing. I'm not saying you have to love Flash, Flex or Apollo. You can hate it. But if you are going to write publicly about it, at least say something somewhat intelligent. You gave the Flash community a good laugh today. :)

Oh my..

Wondering what all the fuss is about. I have certified MS Solutions providers as some of my best clients, asking me to provide more rich, interactive, responsive solutions to THEIR clients. The president of one of them took my advice years ago, and invested in Adobe, Macromedia, and Apple stock. He's not once regretted it.

I think your point is valid in that it points out this: there is a common misconception that has ALWAYS been an issue about the Flash Platform and related technologies: just animation.

The cool thing about the reality is, while it started out that way, Flash has evolved into a really wonderful application development and deployment platform precisely because people like us have asked for and received an increasingly powerful set of tools with which to make our stuff.

Adobe and Macromedia have always and will continue to innovate in this area.

What I run across in MS-centric firms is an unwillingness to consider embracing stuff unless it comes from MS. But that's how it's supposed to be for those guys. That's the whole training, certification, reseller, and solution model. Their ignorance is not always intentionally mean, it's just that they've been entirely focused on their chosen career objectives in a very specific way: the MS way.

Unfortunately, when it comes to blending technologies into best-of-breed solutions, it's helpful to have a good grasp of solid and ever-evolving (not re-hashed legacy) technology. Some MSers see folks like us cross-functional folks eating their lunch and get a little uptight.

The MS design/development stuff built on .net3 and WPF just hasn't seen the wonderfully wide and excited adoption as Adobe's seen with Flex and even the Alpha version of Apollo. So posts like this are their only answer, really. Since there are no big splashes that they can point to other than their own spin.

So I can't blame you for your lack of knowledge in this regard. I'd only hope that someday soon you'd realize that rich application and rapid dev stuff from Adobe are that can help the hype of Vista, .Net3, and WPF actually reach anything approaching reality.

Can't we all just hug?

Parvez,

Aren't you doing same? Saying something which is not right or accurate or very biased?

Once you start writing code in ActionScript, I can bet you gonna love it. I was C/C++ developer and I fell in love seven years back. I still continue to program in different languages (including C#/IL) and use different platforms (MacOSX, GNU/Linux and Windows). But ActionScript/FlashPlayer has very special place near my heart :)

I have been doing .Net programming since first alpha/beta of .Net framework (late 2000 or early) and I never really felt, for a single moment, that two (.Net framework and Adobe Flex) are same.

.Net framework is totally different thing and Adobe Flex framework is totally different thing.. Difference is quite visible..I didn't expect a MS certified professional to make such statement.


But it seems, Microsoft trying to get into areas (RIA etc) Macromedia (Adobe) Flash Player has been for years by it's XAML,WPF/E agendas..Competition is always good, it validates the idea. It provides different options to developers and which is good for end users..


I have respect for Microsoft and I know it's tool are great, but I now prefer FOSS..

Anyway, it's good to hear your perspective.

regards

-abdul

Wow. That was a truly uninformed post. Most all of your pokes and jabs are just not true. Care to give examples? I'm pretty sure you haven't even looked at ActionScript because if you had you would have seen that C# and ActionScript are based on the same ECMA standard so both are easily readable. Now if you want to talk about an obtuse and clunky 'language', let's talk about VB and VB.net. :) I think one of the happiest days of my life was when i could use i++ to increment in asp.net cause you couldn't do that in asp. Granted .net framework is a more feature complete framework, its still a 20+ meg install compared to the Flash Player weighing in around 1 meg.

Keith is right. You don't have to like Flash, Flex or Adobe but at least give some examples of why you don't like them. What you've done boils down to nothing but name calling. I mean Scott Barnes jumps in to back up the MS side of a pissing match but I don't think even he will come to your corner this time.

"Let this year of 2007 come to an end then we will see where this Apollo and Flex stand"

So when it ends and MS is still playing catchup, I'll be back to see what you have to say.

Parvez,

Aren't you doing same? Saying something which is not right or accurate or very biased?

Once you start writing code in ActionScript, I can bet you gonna love it. I was C/C++ developer and I fell in love seven years back. I still continue to program in different languages (including C#/IL) and use different platforms (MacOSX, GNU/Linux and Windows). But ActionScript/FlashPlayer has very special place near my heart :)

I have been doing .Net programming since first alpha/beta of .Net framework (late 2000 or early) and I never really felt, for a single moment, that two (.Net framework and Adobe Flex) are same.

.Net framework is totally different thing and Adobe Flex framework is totally different thing.. Difference is quite visible..I didn't expect a MS certified professional to make such statement.


But it seems, Microsoft trying to get into areas (RIA etc) Macromedia (Adobe) Flash Player has been for years by it's XAML,WPF/E agendas..Competition is always good, it validates the idea. It provides different options to developers and which is good for end users..


I have respect for Microsoft and I know it's tool are great, but I now prefer FOSS..

Anyway, it's good to hear your perspective.

regards

-abdul

"Flash is just an animation software".

What is the name of MSFT's competitor for Flash? And most importantly when it has become available?
Here is little history for you: MSFT have missed Web I, they caught up with purchasing hotmail and msn.com, they also missed Web II - most of the popular Web II sites are built using something else then MSFT products. Guess where the animation software fits here and who was the first one? It is clear MSFT is catching up on RIA front as well these days.

"Actionscript is such a wierd language that simple task like writing/reading file looks almost difficult"

Sure it is. But it doesn't meant to be full blown "one more yet to be complete" language tailored for all types of programming work like Java. Look at what Java AWT/Swing can offer for a client and what Flex/AS3 can. Much reacher internals, much better design capabilities. Sure it lacks some things, sure some are missing forever. Multi threading? Who cares if you can achieve the same with event model!

"Adobe products are desperate ways of competing with Microsoft"

Ha-Ha-Ha-Ha! Ha-Ha-Ha-Ha! Really? Are you serious? You must be comparing microsoft paint and Adobe Photoshop.

I'm all for some healthy discussion but, with all due respect, your uninformed views on Flex and Apollo and how they relate to - as of yet not widely deployed - Microsoft technology add nothing to the debate.

Will Microsoft play a roll when it comes to RIA's and bridging the gap between the web and the desktop? Who knows... it might well do and I'd be very interested to see it happen.

Microsoft plays an important roll, often as a pioneer but certainly not when it comes to the web or user experience.

I take your challenge and call for a review of Flex, Apollo and WPF at the end of the year. I would love to see Microsoft's efforts in this field pay off but am certain it will fail on a number of key fields.

Frankly, your statement is a ludicrous as saying the Zune will overtake the iPod within the year.

I'd love to talk to Microsoft to clarify just how various people are seeing the web and desktop evolve and how they can get involved but there seems to be such a dogmatic view prevalent in the company that Redmond believes they have a roadmap for the internet locked away in a safe.

Don't miss the boat and spend your energy looking at how the web evolves and technologies can integrate to better things rather than start unfounded competition.

We don't want a new browser war when it comes to RIA technology.

I beg to disagree with you in all but the fact that VS is a great piece of software. Thats it. Collect your check from Redmond & actually do a little research first before the next time you decide to launch barbs.

Wow.... the "I can do programming me" crowd is fully here... how you dare to call their beloved "animation player" first then "platform" in such irrespectful way!

Flash was never meant to do the things it is now, it's kind of "accidentally
evolved" and it's also being twisted and contorted in a number of ways (the
smartest thing I've heard Adobe do since the merger is agree to halt on Flash
Players for a couple of years). Problem with Flash though is it always
"emulates" something, native controls, power & mobile devices is no different.

Adobe have to fight and it will be a long fight at that, as despite Microsoft
being many things to many people Adobe can't afford to be interoperable, Adobe
need majority market share in what they are doing or they will fail. They've
grown their creative market to pretty much peak (you would be hard pressed to
find a creative agency/firm that doesn't use Adobe products). So they need to
diversify some more, grow their portfolio and enter the Enterprise space (that's
where the real money is) and they're hoping the .PDF technology will give the
ticket in.

Problem: Enterprise dislike the notion of paying enormous premiums on making UI
technology, HTML is "good enough" and anything that can beat it better have a
reasonable price tag and be just as easy to beat. HTML is a pretty hard
benchmark to beat, Microsoft knows this so does Adobe and Flex for what it's
worth has a lot of great potential, sadly the development environment is to
fragmented.

Beside this is the most stupid propaganda blog entry of the year (in the technical reviews category), I've noticed also that no one from Microsoft is coming to defend you. Does this fact tells you something? Anyway, don't give up, being a technical reviewer is not a simple task, and we all make mistakes on the beginning. Good luck!

Guys,

I think Parvez has learnt his lesson. So, perhaps we should take thinman's suggestion:

GROUP HUG.

Dax

"I know I have hurt a lot of people"

If you really hurt anybody, then it's his problem being that sensitive. I don't see any big deal here.

Disagree initially with the wording of Parvez. I think I get were he was probably intending to go "FLASH = Accidental Evolution".

Let's be clear folks, Flash isn't successful due to concepts like FLEX. They came after the fact, and FLEX's sole existance was for Enterprise - NOT - web developers. Joe, you're a smart developer whom I respect but your comments were very ignorant in this thread so I hope you're just stirring and you actually aren't buying what you're selling?

Flash's success and will continue to be a success is not due to FLEX RIA or Apollo applications being built, it's due to someone getting a burning need to see "Angry German Kid Mashup" on YouTube or something along those lines. Flex has what 10k - 15k developer's world wide whom are in "development mode". How many of these are producing and sustaining this skillset going forward?

Flash Player(s) = 98% of the worlds computers right?

Flash 9 != 98% :) its less, far less!

Windows has 95% of the worlds computers. We seeing an emerging picture here? so WPF and WPF/e are just some evolutionary medium we appear to be stumbling our way forward on? C#/VB are just languages that accidently happen? XAML is just this language which some engineers were goofing around building one day and thought "lets take on the Flash Player market because that would be fun"

-
or
-

If you'd like to expand beyond the Adobe blinders, and look around at the world around you, the developers whom live in it you'll come to realise that overall WPF and WPF/e have a very small focus on competiting with FLASH Player. It's actually a much bigger picture then Flash Player and it's not the right discussion.

You'll come to realise this in time - I hope anyway.

Scott,

Would you get your facts straight for once?

Flash Player 7 == 98.3%
Flash Player 8 == 97.5%
Flash Player 9 == 84.3% March 2007 Survey
WPF/E == 0% (Not deployed, In development)
Apollo == 0% (Not deployed, In development)

Every single day over 6+ Million Flash Players get installed like clockwork. I wish Windows or .NET could keep up with that installation rate. Flash Player 9 will get to 98%, there are 8 prior players that prove this will happen.

I also find it hysterical that 4 months ago you were a chatterbox about Flex. Now that MS is paying you, you bash it? Right now I consider you one of our best assets at MS, keep up the GREAT WORK Scott!!!

A few sites using Flex for review:

http://www.picnik.com
http://www.scrapblog.com

Parvez,

If you are interested in learning a bit of Flex/Flash/Apollo please drop me an email. Shoot I will even send you a free copy of Flex Builder for your time! :)

ted@adobe.com

Cheers,

Ted Patrick
Flex Evangelist
Adobe Systems

Well, I was going to reply, but, um, thanks, Ted :).

Man, I admire your honesty and courage. For me this is worthily than any technical knowledge or affiliation.
BR Milan

Parvez,

I don't think you've hurt anyone. I guess the point was that the information was just not well researched, and your finding where thus incorrect. I guess my approach to things is that if I am going to have an opinion about something, I better have a damn good understanding about it before doing that.

I hope you'll go back and have a long good look at the Engagement platform again, and see it's actually pretty nice. It doesn't have to replace or change your views on WPF at all.

As a developer, I'm very happy to see you've correct your initial view to this, and I'd love to see another better researched article about this.

Ralph.

Ted,

Not to nitpick, but I think Scott did get his facts straight. He said that Flash 9 was NOT 98%, and according to your own comment it is 84.3%. Which, I believe, is actually not 98%. :)

Oh, c'mon, I'm a WPF evangelist - you didn't expect me to let that one go, did you? :)

But your point is well taken. I'll even admit to having blogged about the potential of WPF and WPF/E by showing the example of Flex 1.0 apps (this was a year or so back).

I said this recently when asked about WPF(and /E) competing with Flash:
"The official response is that WPF (or /E) is not competing with Flash. The unofficial answer is that WPF (or /E) is not competing with Flash." :)

Similarities? Sure! Inspired by Flash in some regards? Sure, why not! But it is not the Flash killer. In fact, Flash is still better in terms of animation, and such. Of course, IMHO, WPF provides much better facilities for creating solid interactivity and a robust backend - even for extremely low-level applications (aka serious, scientific or OS-level apps for all you non-devs out there), which I think will take a long time for Flash to achieve - if it actually decides to go there.

- Dax

Did you write "Scott" and "facts" in the same sentence? :)

My gripe was this quote from Barnes 2.0:

"Flash 9 != 98% :) its less, far less!"

The first part is fact, but 84.3% is not "far less" by a long shot. Describing 11% as "far less" is misleading. "far less" is factual if you are referring to WPF/WPFE. You can quote me on this, WPFE is far far far far far far far far far less at 0% (9*far==99%).

There is often a large misconception in MSFT dev circles related to understanding Flash technologies. I have heard many comments similar to Parvez's original post in MSFT circles. Not to beat a dead horse but Flash Player has a very professional side to it that many do not know about. ActionScript 3 is a modern programming language based on EMCA4 supporting OOP, Patterns, Interfaces, Components, Media (MP3,FLV,Streaming,Progressive), Networking (Sockets, HTTP/HTTPS), and data exchange (XML, E4X, SOAP, AMF, RTMP). Although the player is small, it has a ton of world class features for developers creating RIA for the desktop and the web.

There are 2 models for developing SWF files for deployment in Flash Player, Flash and Flex. Flex provides a paradigm that uses classes and components that most software developers can easily understand. Flash provides a development model for animation using keyframes. What is really cool is that both can be used seamlessly together with some NEW tools we have been secretly working on. Additionally you can use both Flash/Flex to deliver desktop apps using Apollo cross-platform.

Just trying to clear the MS-FUD, although I am sure MSFT has plenty more loaded into the catapult for Web 2.0, NAB, and MIX07.

Cheers,

Ted Patrick
Flex Evangelist
Adobe Systems

Wow what can be said that hasn't been said already (props to Ted). Although I cant resist pointing out a point I found EXTRA comical.

This being the statement "Dot NET Framework is downloaded four times more than their Apollo runtime". Does this statement really make Apollo look bad or .Net. I mean take .Net, Microsofts' mature framework that has been around for 5+ years in a production environment, versus Apollo, which has been around for all of what 3-4 weeks in public ALPHA (yeah, not production... not even beta... ALPHA) and its already being downloaded at 25% of .Net? That number sounds pretty damn promising for Apollo to me.

With the blatant disregard this post has for anything factual, I thought this quote to be fitting..

"A learned man is an idler who kills time with study. Beware of his false knowledge; it is more dangerous than ignorance."
George Bernard Shaw

Idiot.

hehe, This guy could be the next Microsoft CEO. Bill Gates said something like '640K of memory should be enough for anybody' Ok, it was somewhere back in the 80's... we forgive, but do not forget.

What is the most important information I should know about levitra? You can buy cheap levitra at my homepage :)

Each is really amazing in it’s own right. Flash's penetration, combined with its designer following history, make it a amazing asset for RIA's. .Net framework, visual studio along with the debugger (the holy grail of Microsoft in my opinion), its amazing tools surrounding it, especially the architectural designers, code generators available (CodeSmith for one), enterprise based tiers for applications that are (subsonic, .netTiers, etc.) is just a fraction of what makes developing .net framework applications amazing. This is what allows MS to dominate at the enterprise level.
The point is they both have AMAZING strengths. To me, the greatest best has been leveraging their powers together. .net combined with something like WebORB for .net (seriously amazing) and Flash / Flex, is the best of both worlds. If Microsoft every can sway the designers, get the kind of penetration and cross platform compatibility that macromedia/adobe has then sure Microsoft could probably dominate the enterprise completely, except, of course that Adobe has always been about the designers first, and it’s entrenched, and amazing. Didn’t photoshop become a verb?
In an ideal world Adobe would figure out how to let us write C# flash and flex applications inside Visual Studio, and WebORB would be built into both to tie it all together while generating all the guts and making the union seamless and beautiful . Yeah, I’m plugging WebORB. Use it for 30 minutes, change your boxers, then come back and argue me. At least with Adobe’s efforts to get the developers behind flex and flash to help out with the open SDK we can hope that this is the future we can all expect, a marriage between design, engineering, automation, media, and so on.

Cheers, Web 2.0 is just now surfacing, and it’s going to be a revolution.

This is great! One question: Is there any way around the authentication issue? I have a portal which requires a login/password. Am I out of luck?

I believe in the power of marriage... people should do to !

I guess it takes to blog drunk to then realise that you should never blog whilst drunk :P

Don't worry it's probably happened to more than a few of us in our blogging careers.

Stu

Cool, the post.

Thanks for the information.

"I know I have hurt a lot of people"

If you really hurt anybody, then it's his problem being that sensitive. I don't see any big deal here.

I'm agree with you.

I'm agree with you.

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